Post #480

Facts from Oliver Letwin

10th August 2004, early evening | Comments (64)

Here are some interesting facts that our local MP (and Shadow Chancellor), Oliver Letwin, pointed out in The Daily Telegraph.

  1. The Civil Service is now the size of Sheffield.
  2. The number of tax collectors has increased almost twice as fast as new doctors and nurses.
  3. There are now more tax collectors and customs officers that people serving in the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force.
  4. Just one department — Work and Pensions — employs more people than there are soldiers in the British Army.
  5. An extra 511 civil servants were employed every week last year.
  6. The number of new bureaucrats and support staff in education increased twice as fast as the number of new teachers.
  7. 88,000 new people were employed to work in education last year; just 14,000 of these were teachers of teaching assistants.
  8. The number of NHS managers is increasing three times as fast as that of new doctors.
  9. The extra size of the NHS bureaucracy since 1997 would pay for over 4000,000 hip replacements.
  10. For every extra police officer, almost one more bureaucrat has been employed in the Home Office.
  11. 15 new business regulations have been created every day since 1997.
  12. A criminal’s arrest takes, on average, three and a half hours to process.
  13. For every job in the private sector lost last year, the public sector took on almost two jobs.
  14. There are more Defra bureaucrats than there are dairy farmers in England.
  15. The increase in the Government’s advertising budget since 1997 could have paid for an extra 17,000 heart bypass operations.
  16. Two years ago, Mr Brown announced that he was going to axe 18,000 jobs in Work and Pensions. Since that reductions programme began, the number of staff has increased by 3,500.

And finally:

My Brown has assured us that he will strictly control every penny of public spending. But he now admits that £20 billion has been mis-spent, that his administrative costs have gone up by 60 per cent, that he has underestimated his administrative expenditure by £4 billion, and that the taxi bill for the Cabinet Office has risen by 1,000 per cent.

The people in charge of this country need a big ol’ slap.

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Comments (64)

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  1. Turnip:

    "88,000 new people were employed to work in education last year; just 14,000 of these were teachers of teaching assistants."

    And out of those 14,000, what percentage are actually good teachers? I'm about to go into the last year of secondary school, and I can count the number of good teachers I have on one hand. I'm not saying that from a schoolboy "I hate my teachers" perspective, but as a pupil, I can really see which teachers can actually teach, and which can't. And most of them can't.

    My two best teachers last (academic) year have now left, one to go back to Canada, and one to get a new job and the teacher that I was promised would never teach me again, two years ago, I find teaching me for Chemistry *and* Biology. He only has an A level in Chemistry.

    The sad thing is, we're the lucky ones.

    Posted 24 minutes after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Spike
  2. Rob Mientjes:

    Boy, do I love politics :D

    You'd better be going back to America soon, my boy!

    Posted 26 minutes after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Daryl, ↓ David Barrett
  3. Ethan:

    I don't know what a "Shadow Chancellor" is, but I think I've just found my new secret identity.

    Posted 31 minutes after the fact
  4. Robert Lofthouse:

    "You'd better be going back to America soon, my boy!"

    That's like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

    As for teachers:

    My fiancee is a teacher and she slogs her ass off for her pupils. She's an amazing teacher though (all the kids love her). Some of her colleagues are a bit crap and can't teach, but most teachers put an extraordinary amount of effort into what they do. Unfortunately for them, most kids don't appreciate what they do :P which is a shame. Not saying that's the same in all schools of course, there were lots of shit ones when I was at school.

    "He only has an A level in Chemistry."

    Doesn't mean he can't teach, or isn't intelligent. However, proper teachers are required to have a degree in the subject they want to teach, then they have to do a PGCE and THEN they get to teach. I hate people on the fast-track summer teacher training courses, it's not the same.

    I remember a lecturer who was teaching me visual basic in college (interim between uni and secondary school for you Americans) and he told us that he failed his visual basic assignment on his HND (worth half a degree). Didn't understand why he was teaching us.

    I can't stand politics. I hate Labour at the moment, but the only other "big" option is the Conservatives, who imo are no better. Other than that you have UKIP and the BNP, the former being the commercial form of the latter. Then there's the liberal democrats, who aren't very liberal.

    It's good to rant.

    Posted 41 minutes after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Richard, ↓ Turnip
  5. Jeremy:

    It's nice to see we 'muricans aren't the only ones with a bloated government. Although I'm an American civil servant benefiting by way of our country's bureaucracy, I believe our government could use a trim -- in fact, maybe a full-on excision (a lobotomy, maybe?)!

    It would be nice if the national political candidates here would turn out facts like those Mr. Letwin did, then tell us how they'll act on these thorny issues -- instead of peddling the current smoke screens and twisted lies. God save us.

    I don't make the rules, however ... just currently playing by them. I'd gladly give up my job if I thought it would make a difference. In fact, I like to think that one of these days I'll be more efficient -- and more self-sufficient -- living a simple life in the country, relying on God, the earth, my hands, my gifts. Don't know what I'll do without a computer, though. And my gas-powered sport utility vehicle.

    Posted 44 minutes after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Isaac Schlueter, ↓ Isaac Schlueter
  6. Daryl:

    "You'd better be going back to America soon, my boy!"

    Heh, because America's got a much better record for government spending, especially under the current administration, whose motto seems to be something like "Let's spiral the country into a record deficit from a balanced budget by underfunding an outlandish war in the name of freedom and civil liberties while stripping our own citizens of their own civil liberties." Heh.

    Posted 1 hour, 29 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Rob Mientjes
    Inspired: ↓ David Barrett
  7. Tom:

    gosh ... and I thought that only here in Poland we have a such problems with politicians

    well, I hope someday .. WE ... won't :)

    Posted 1 hour, 31 minutes after the fact
  8. Daniel:

    I guess Monty Python were on to something with that Ministry of Silly Walks sketch...
    http://guardian.curtin.edu.au/cga/art/tv.html

    Posted 1 hour, 33 minutes after the fact
  9. Sophie:

    And I thought us French were the only country in the world with overweight bureaucracy problems...

    Funny how if you listen to our conservatives they always say UK is a model of good liberal policies (here liberal would not mean the same thing as on the other side of the channel I think).

    I saw an interesting article recently about Dordogneshire and how so many UK citizens 'emigrate' in this part of France... Maybe they're coming for less bureaucracy, who would have believed this. Or maybe for cheaper surgery...

    The figures like 'these many bureaucrats would amount to these many surgeries' are not meant to mean much, but the rates of bureaucrats to 'field people' are.

    Posted 2 hours, 39 minutes after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Richard
  10. David Barrett:

    I had an idea for a painting. It would show an imaginary cruise ship, the USS America, smashing into an iceberg. The captain would be drunk, and everyone would be oblivious to what was going on.

    It would be titled "Progress".

    Posted 2 hours, 41 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Rob Mientjes, ↑ Daryl
    Inspired: ↓ Rob Mientjes, ↓ David Barrett, ↓ Jeremy
  11. Rob Mientjes:

    I'd buy it (no pun intended - if possible anyways).
    What can I say. I was wrong. There is no place on earth (except maybe lovely Canada!) where one can live normally, without having to pay absurdly high taxes because a high chief borks up. All because of those borking-up high chiefs! Damn them!

    Or, to quote Weebl, 'Damn you Sweden!'. I love Pikea.

    Posted 2 hours, 46 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ David Barrett
  12. David Barrett:

    As an aside, something has gone wrong with Firefox and I'm stuck on IE6 at the moment. HELP ME IT HURTS.

    I noticed the spell-checker on the preview... nice.

    Posted 2 hours, 51 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ David Barrett
  13. Jonathan M. Hollin:

    Thanks Dunstan, for reminding me of just how much I hate this government.

    Come back Guy Fawkes (see: http://www.armitstead.com/gunpowder/gunpowder_trial.html), we need you now!

    Posted 2 hours, 58 minutes after the fact
  14. Jeremy:

    David, every good piece of political art I've seen has most elements labeled, for the sake of clarity in communication. Just curious: what would the iceberg represent?

    Anyone else want a shot at this one?

    Posted 3 hours, 7 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ David Barrett
  15. Spuggy:

    Not mad keen on this government but boy did I hate those Tories back when. Still do.

    Posted 4 hours, 7 minutes after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Michelle, ↓ Andy
  16. Sparticus:

    On a related note, did you know that as part of the examination to be upgraded from constable to sergeant police officers have to go through a two day political correctness exam? That's two days away at some nice house in the country doing an exam. I don't want to sound like a Tory but...

    Posted 4 hours, 28 minutes after the fact
  17. David Zülke:

    Well... it's about the same here in Germany; but there's one thing that's even worse: the European Union. THAT's bureaucracy. I've read and seen so many reports that I can't even remember when I began to hate the EU. You guys over in the UK are right with your opposition against it. Waste of money. Instrument of lobbyists. Etc, etc </rant>

    Posted 5 hours, 50 minutes after the fact
  18. Anura:

    I could take this all personally, being a good public servant as we are called here. Inefficient, wasteful, moi?
    The problems with bloated bureaucracy comes from so many different directions. On the one hand, politicians like to come up with lots of new policies, even if the old ones were just fine, to make it look like they are really 'doing' something - double that for election years. So of course, each new policy actually needs someone to make it happen.
    On the other hand, large organisations and complex internal funding mechanisms means its really hard to focus on the important things, give them the money they need to succeed and cut everything else out.
    The best explanation of all of this was of course 'Yes, Minister' and 'Yes, Prime Minister' - then read Maggie Thatchers autobiography to realise that it wasn't comedy after all!

    Posted 5 hours, 59 minutes after the fact
  19. Richard:

    I have to get a minor rant out of my system.

    Robert says "I can't stand politics" - but you don't mean that, do you? Politics isn't the problem, cos here we all are, wanting to talk about it and discuss it and find out more. I just think that saying that you don't like politics is a bit defeatist. Dunstan sticks it on his blog because it's bloody important stuff, one way or another. I guess you agree, right?

    And how can you say there's Conservatives, and *then* "...you have UKIP and the BNP..." and **then** ..."there's the liberal democrats, who aren't very liberal." ? In *that* order? Don't you think that UKIP and the BNP are ever so slightly less liberal?! Or am I just reading too much into this?

    Dunstan, I just wanted to say that point 12 stuck out a bit:

    "A criminal’s arrest takes, on average, three and a half hours to process."

    Criminals don't get arrested, *potential* criminals do. Guilty 'til proven innocent and all that. If you were arrested for something, you probably wouldn't want to be processed in 2 minutes, would you? You'd want to make sure that everything was properly done, so that they'd find out the truth of the matter. I take the point that lots of extra forms and stuff might be over the top, and that should be reduced if necessary, but "more time = bad job" doesn't really ring true for me. No?

    Point 9 also sticks a bit:

    "The extra size of the NHS bureaucracy since 1997 would pay for over 4,000,000 hip replacements."

    Oooh that's a lot of hip replacements. What are you (Oliver Letwin, whoever) really saying here? Do we know how many hip replacements (or other 'currency' to measure health benefits) were made *possible* by the extra planning and thinking done by this invisible baddie 'NHS bureaucracy'? Do you really think that all NHS behind-the-scenes is just meaningless stuff, that could immediately be exchanged for 4,000,000 hip replacements? Or perhaps it would have been a more hard-hitting point if Oliver Letwin had said 300,000 premature baby incubators? Or what? OK, sure, there needs to be a good balance. But this kind of advertising-slogan 'fact' is just plain old playing with numbers. And it's all a bit more important than that, isn't it?

    OK, you've got me going now. And before we go any further, I don't vote Labour. Ever. Or BNP or UKIP, incidentally.

    "The Civil Service is now the size of Sheffield." - So? How big is Sheffield? How big is The UK? How many civil servants do we *want* and *need*? Any number, as long as it's not as big as an actual *place*? We'll be looking at piles of office paper as high as Everest next... or maybe carpet on the floor of offices the size of Wales or Belgium. Meaningless, without context.

    "The number of tax collectors has increased almost twice as fast as new doctors and nurses." - Again, meaningless, unless we know the absolute figures, rather than just relative rates of growth. I agree _of course_ that we want lots of doctors and nurses. Most of my family are in the NHS somehow (not me, btw) and I think it's all bloody important that there's investment. But how many tax collectors do we have, and how many does a country like the UK *need*? If there were 5 tax collectors, and it went up to 10, that's an increase of 100% If there were 100,000 nurses, and it went up to 150,000, that's only 50%. That's 45,995 more nurses, and 5 more tax collectors. Need I say more?

    "There are now more tax collectors and customs officers that people serving in the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force." - OK. We all hate these tax collectors, right? Easy target for a good bit of populist PR, eh? (Spin? I thought that was a _bad_ thing, guys!?) So there's more tax and customs people than Navy and Air Force people? Would everything be hunky dory if it was the other way round, just like that? Do we just want to have a quick check, just to see that there's more nurses than call centre workers? Or teachers than police? What is the _point_ here? That Oliver Letwin thinks we're stupid?

    "Just one department — Work and Pensions — employs more people than there are soldiers in the British Army." - Are we getting some kind of point yet? The British Army. Better have lots of those. Or maybe we need more nurses? Or people trying to get people jobs and sort out their pensions? Are we saying that we need more soldiers, or less government? If so, are they not *entirely* independent of each other? How confused and confusing is this? Very *very*?

    "An extra 511 civil servants were employed every week last year." Woo hoo! Doing what? Counting the number of Royal Engineers per classroom assistant? How many were there before that? A million? Four?

    "The number of new bureaucrats and support staff in education increased twice as fast as the number of new teachers." - This _may_ be an important point. Not sure. As Sophie points out above, this seems a bit more relevant, given that more teachers looks like a good thing compared to more bureaucrats. But without absolute figures, rather than just relative ones, this 'fact' just shows that whichever Tory researcher wrote it needed to pay more attention in maths classes. Must try harder, Oliver.

    "88,000 new people were employed to work in education last year; just 14,000 of these were teachers of teaching assistants." - 14,000 is quite a lot, but it's not as bit as 88,000. This much we know. Teachers cost a certain amount to train and employ. There are other jobs in education that need doing. If the absolute numbers mean that the allocation of resources is wrong, then say so. Get the information out there. Or does the more rational way of presenting the information not sound as cool?

    "The number of NHS managers is increasing three times as fast as that of new doctors." - I'm beginning to lose the will to live, here.

    "The extra size of the NHS bureaucracy since 1997 would pay for over 4,000,000 hip replacements." - Yeah, we know. Terrible, ain't it? Oh, I can't stand politics.

    "For every extra police officer, almost one more bureaucrat has been employed in the Home Office." - OK. Again, may have a point to raise here. But tell us what bureaucrats are for, and whether or not that help the police to do a better job, for example. And also, importantly, *when* is this statement true? During the month that they had more than average Home Office intake and less than average police intake? Needs a graph, Oliver. You know, those things with the wiggly lines that let us see really clearly what's going on.

    "15 new business regulations have been created every day since 1997." - Oh. My. God. And there was me thinking 11, maybe 12 at the *most*. What on Earth does this mean? That governments are very busy? That regulations are numerous little buggers? What? How many regulations do other people create? And business regulations to do *what*? Make business fairer? Do those regulations include things to make freelance web designers' lives easier? Can we have some more, please?

    "A criminal’s arrest takes, on average, three and a half hours to process." - See above. Do we want to have them tried, sentenced and strung up within the hour? Or maybe cut out the trial part? (sorry, that's Jack Straw and David Blunkett's trick.)

    "For every job in the private sector lost last year, the public sector took on almost two jobs." - And? Absolute figure? What does the longer-term graph look like? Really?

    "There are more Defra bureaucrats than there are dairy farmers in England." - Quick, get them out there in the fields! Or are some of the Defra (Department for Environment Food and Rural Affairs) 'bureaucrats' busy trying to make sure that the rest of the dairy farmers don't go out of business? Or busy with the Environment or Food or Rural Affairs? Notice how that's a fairly _big_ remit, there? I like milk in my tea, but how many dairy farmers is the right number?

    "The increase in the Government’s advertising budget since 1997 could have paid for an extra 17,000 heart bypass operations." - If we're talking superfluous adverts, then I think that's very bad. But does this advertising include advertising any important things? If not, then I repeat, kill the advertising. But can somebody wake me up when the Shadow chancellor has got this heart-bypass/hip-replacement fixation out of his system?

    "Two years ago, Mr Brown announced that he was going to axe 18,000 jobs in Work and Pensions. Since that reductions programme began, the number of staff has increased by 3,500." - Fair point. But what's the explanation? Or do we not need anything complicated and difficult like that?

    "Mr Brown has assured us that he will strictly control every penny of public spending. But he now admits that £20 billion has been mis-spent, that his administrative costs have gone up by 60 per cent, that he has underestimated his administrative expenditure by £4 billion, and that the taxi bill for the Cabinet Office has risen by 1,000 per cent." - OK. So how does this compare with everyone else? Is this extraordinary? Are we supposed to assume it is? What was the administrative budget before and after this 60% rise? £1 and £1.60, because of replacing those 3 broken pencil sharpeners? And my taxi bill (over the last year) would go up by a *much bigger* percentage if I used one to go across town right now, because I don't use taxis very much. Maths. Amazing stuff.

    So, remind me again: who needs a big ol’ slap? (Me, for writing such a big comment? - hope I haven't pissed anyone off. But does anyone agree with me? Please?)

    Posted 6 hours, 36 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Robert Lofthouse, ↑ Sophie
    Inspired: ↓ Sophie, ↓ Dunstan, ↓ Zzen
  20. Isaac Schlueter:

    Jeremy:
    "a lobotomy, maybe"
    Bureaucracy by nature lacks the primary requirement for receiving a lobotomy.

    Regarding America's gun-toting bureaucracy, since it seems that this has become a collective spleen vent,
    On the one hand, we've got so-called "conservatives", who say that we shouldn't be taxing so much, but then spend plenty. What's "conservative" about that?
    The other alternative is the so-called "liberals", who want to spend even more, but want to restrict everything that we do until you need a permit to cross the street. (If you want to sell or buy anything, forget about it!) What's "liberal" about that? (Thommy J. would be turning in his grave over the abuse of the word alone!)

    Nothing is ever done out of civic duty or group-think as efficiently as out of hunger or greed.

    Posted 10 hours, 4 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Jeremy
    Inspired: ↓ Sophie
  21. Sophie:

    Thanks Richard for taking the time to say all this.

    Supporting such a list of statements with facts and figures would ruin its effect I guess, make it longer, and ask reflexion rather than reaction on the part of the reader.
    Have you noticed how seldom politicians and above all journalists do give you the figures ? Percentages are much more 'interesting' and can be made to hint at many different things.

    "For every job in the private sector lost last year, the public sector took on almost two jobs."
    So ? Where would UK's beloved growth and consumption levels be without these jobs ? Would the people who got them be unemployed instead ? Are they so numerous they have an influence on the economy, or has the private sector created almost no jobs, and both private and public increases don't change anything economically ?

    Isaac : "Bureaucracy by nature lacks the primary requirement for receiving a lobotomy."
    Bureaucracy as an idea doesn't, but your statement can be understood to mean bureaucrats.
    I'd be interested if you could point me in the direction of any human being on this planet who qualifies. We all have brains.

    Posted 13 hours, 23 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Richard, ↑ Isaac Schlueter
    Inspired: ↓ Richard, ↓ Isaac Schlueter, ↓ Dunstan, ↓ Zzen
  22. Michelle:

    @Spugsy

    As I see it there is no difference between Labour and the Conservatives. They are both crap.

    Posted 13 hours, 31 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Spuggy
    Inspired: ↓ Andy
  23. Robert Lofthouse:

    Richard:

    Isn't a person allowed to dislike the government, politicians and the fact that it doesn't matter what any campaigning politician says, when they get into the government they'll be told what they can and can't do, by those above them? Therefore, I "can't stand politics". Not everyone appreciates politics and I gave my reasons why I don't like it. Sure, i'll talk about it with people sometimes, but I usually give my reasons for not liking it.

    As for saying "I can't stand politics" is defeatist, how so? Just because I don't really feel like waging a war on the government as I have more important things to do in my life, doesn't mean i'm resigned to the fact that we'll never be able to change the government. I protested throughout my college/school days, I don't see the point in doing it anymore.

    and...

    Did you miss out the full stops and sentences in my paragraph or something:

    "I hate Labour at the moment, but the only other "big" option is the Conservatives, who imo are no better. Other than that you have UKIP and the BNP, the former being the commercial form of the latter. Then there's the liberal democrats, who aren't very liberal."

    Which translated means: I hate labour and the conservatives. When voting my only other option would be UKIP and the BNP, but UKIP are just a commercial form of the BNP - as my friend who studies business and politics confirmed (in his opinion). Finally, there's the liberal democrats, who aren't very liberal these days and don't really seem to have a firm opinion on anything.

    So I don't know how you got this:

    "And how can you say there's Conservatives, and *then* "...you have UKIP and the BNP..." and **then** ..."there's the liberal democrats, who aren't very liberal." ? In *that* order? Don't you think that UKIP and the BNP are ever so slightly less liberal?! Or am I just reading too much into this?"

    Very weird translation. The whole point of the paragraph wasn't who is more liberal than who. The whole point of the paragraph was to list my reasons for not liking any of the candidates. Yes, you were reading too much into it.

    Your post went round in circles a bit once I got 60% through, so I didn't read the rest (sorry).

    I loathe discussing politics, hence why 90% of my post was about my fiancee - but thank you for allowing me to rant. Besides, most conversations about politics in England turn into a racist rant - which I certainly don't want to be part of.

    David: What's up with firefox? You better not be joking, you just don't joke about those kind of things *rocks in the corner of his room*. I hope that day never comes for me.

    Finally, in the words of George W Bush:

    "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

    and

    "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier...just as long as I'm the dictator..."

    Bless.

    (my last comments on the matter, unless David starts crying for help again)

    Posted 13 hours, 50 minutes after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Richard
  24. Spuggy:

    @michelle

    Your're right of course but growing up in 80's I have a particular loathing for the Conservatives, who will always be the party of the rich, the poll tax, the miners strike, and rogering the poor etc.

    Tony Blair being Margret Thatcher's greatest triumph of course ;-)

    At the moment I either vote green or spoil my paper by writing "bolox" across the names. I always turn up to vote in honour of people who, in the past, have charged up beaches or got shot at to protect that right.

    Posted 14 hours, 12 minutes after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Tim
  25. Andy:

    Oh, I so said to myself I wouldn't do this...

    The line that "they are all the same" is code for "I can't be bothered finding out".

    Saying the government is getting it wrong is fine if that's what you think. Saying the government is just the same as what went before when it patently isn't, is not fine.

    A few quick examples that would not have happened under a Conservative government...

    The Minimum Wage would not have happened. This on its own has taken over 1.5 million people out of poverty. You can argue whether it could do more, but the Tories wouldn't have done it.

    There are two million *more* people in jobs. Employment is higher now than it has been for thirty years. Anyone else remember how this used to work in the 80's and 90's?

    Lowest mortgage rates for years - people are saving about £3k a year (on average) as a result.

    Something like £23 billion is being spent on improving council housing. I live in a really poor area of London, and the people who live there know there is a difference between the parties - it's called new windows, central heating, new security doors etc.

    No government is perfect, and I'm certainly not claiming this one is. And there are lots of things that I wish they would do differently/better/not at all.

    Oliver Letwin's piece is worthwhile if it gets people thinking about what they actually want their money spent on. Richard's comment outlines really well some of the decisions this actually involves.

    Will calm down now, promise...

    Posted 14 hours, 21 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Spuggy, ↑ Michelle
    Inspired: ↓ Richard
  26. Alex:

    -sigh-

    A democratia will hold true until the governing body discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money, at which point it become an oligarchy.

    You see, Gordon Brown is smart, he know that if people are working they will be happy and vote for his political party, so he gave them jobs, with the public money, that's why the UK even with one of the lowest unemployment number in history is running a budget deficit.

    People just don't understand that they are mortgaging their future. Oliver Letwin can try to educate them, but he'll fail, he should work on his charisma since that's why Tony Blair was elected, people want promises even if there's no way to financially fulfill them.

    Posted 14 hours, 35 minutes after the fact
  27. Richard Earney:

    I would have thought the combination of Shadow Chancellor and Daily Telegraph might also make you wonder how many of these 'facts' are true!

    How can you tell if a politician is lying? His/Her lips are moving!!!

    All governments love bureaucracy - and no doubt a new goverment of whatever shade would pledge to cut the number and end up with more. Have you ever watched Yes Minister???

    Those of you who remember the Thatcher era may, for example, have the impression that her govt kept spending, taxes, bureacracy and the money supply under control. Well it didn't and generally governments can't.

    How does one square the circle of ideally 'less government and less interference" with a good health service good education, defence, etc?

    Answers on a postcard!!!

    Posted 14 hours, 53 minutes after the fact
  28. Tim:

    "...growing up in 80's I have a particular loathing for the Conservatives..."

    Damn right! There's no way that - despite all the lies, broken promises and spin of this Labour government - I will vote Tory. Our local MP is LibDem, and I will vote LibDem to keep him in office.

    Posted 14 hours, 58 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Spuggy
  29. Richard:

    Robert -

    I want to properly apologise: I take back what I said about that paragraph of yours. I kind of deliberately ignored the full-stop, there. It was just an odd order to put things in (you must admit - it looks a bit like you would choose the LibDems last, over the others... though I now guess you wouldn't) and, taken with the "can't stand politics" bit, made me want to question it. I should have left that one, I admit. I *know* you weren't actually saying that the BNP was more liberal than the liberal democrats... that would be barking :-) OK? Sorry.

    Yes, of course, you can dislike government without having to spend all your time battling against it. I don't spend any time battling, other than thinking and talking about it, I suppose, which is lazy. But hating politics as a whole isn't going to do much good either. 'Politics' isn't the problem, it's *this* politics. Dodgy statistics and advertising tactics. It's enough to turn anyone against it all, but I worry when people say they hate all political parties, because I agree with Andy that "...the line that "they are all the same" is code for "I can't be bothered finding out"". Maybe it would be better to say "...is _often_ code for..." - because it's not in your case. Let's let sleeping dogs lie. You're of course free to do and say whatever you bloody like, so: feel free to loathe politics, and discussing it. I don't like the politics used by most politicians today - at least we can agree on that.

    Posted 15 hours, 51 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Sophie, ↑ Robert Lofthouse, ↑ Andy
  30. Rakesh Pai:

    Well, I don't understand any politics, but I thought I'd point out - don't you mean "than" instead of "that" in point 3?

    Posted 16 hours, 37 minutes after the fact
  31. Isaac Schlueter:

    Sophie,

    It is my understanding that all bureaucrats have brains.

    It was a barbed quip, in response to Jeremy's comment above that our government could use a lobotomy, and clearly not meant to be taken literally. I was also making a not-so-subtle point about the opposition between bureaucracies and independent thought.

    Sorry that my wit couldn't tickle you.

    Posted 19 hours, 58 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Jeremy, ↑ Sophie
  32. Jeremy:

    Isaac, et al. --

    I laughed out loud at your "brainless bureaucracy" comment -- then let issue an uncontrollable whoop at Spuggy's bolox (sic) comment. (That one blindsided me but good.)

    All of this had my co-workers here wondering exactly what I was up to. So I straightened up and muttered something about "sobering political discourse."

    Who'd have thought it could be so fun?

    Posted 21 hours, 30 minutes after the fact
  33. Turnip:

    I didn't see this for a while, so the comment I'm replying to it way up there ^^ ;)

    Quote:
    -----------
    "He only has an A level in Chemistry."

    Doesn't mean he can't teach, or isn't intelligent. However, proper teachers are required to have a degree in the subject they want to teach, then they have to do a PGCE and THEN they get to teach. I hate people on the fast-track summer teacher training courses, it's not the same.
    -----------

    I don't think he isn't intelligent, quite the opposite in fact, but I *do* think that he can't teach. Not because he only has an A level in Chemistry, but because he has a complete lack of ability to deal with situations in an appropriate way.

    For example:

    He was going to give a head teacher's detention (something like 2 1/2 hours after school on a Friday with the head teacher) to somebody for turning on the water tap when they weren't supposed to.

    And then, on a separate occasion:

    A boy walked up to another boy with a red hot scalpel and puts it on his arm (to burn him). He asks the burner to sit down, and has the burnee removed from the class for swearing (after being burnt). The burnee now has a scar on his arm because the teacher refused to let him put it under cold water or go to the nurse.

    OK, neither of those are directly about teaching, but I think the ability to handle situations matters as much in teaching as the ability to make the pupils understand what it is they are being taught.

    It's just one person, I know, but what amazes me is how these people are accepted for the job in the first place. It seems that so long as you are intelligent enough to understand the actual subject, you don't need to have any teaching skills whatsoever.

    Posted 21 hours, 34 minutes after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Robert Lofthouse
  34. Robert Lofthouse:

    Turnip:

    Yeah, as I said - teaching/social skills are essential if you want to become a teacher. Teachers go on insets all the time (well, they're optional in a lot of cases) to improve their skills, not just skills to do with their subject, but also how to deal with certain students and situations.

    I know quite a few teachers like the one you're talking about. They're usually in it purely because they didn't get to be what they wanted to be in life (e.g. science teacher failed to become a vet) and that's what ruins it. My fiancee wanted to be a teacher since secondary school. Now she's head of media studies, an English teacher and a literacy co-ordinator for her school and she loves her job.

    Teaching takes a lot more than just knowing the subject, same as web design/development takes more than just knowing a few programming/scripting languages.

    When I was in school we had a new teacher for Physics. She seemed ok at first but then we noticed her flaws as time progressed. She couldn't control the class at all and most people got away with whatever they wanted in class, including hitting on her. When fights broke out in class we usually had to run to the next building to get another teacher to sort it out while she cowered in the corner.
    It probably won't surprise you that this teacher was sacked because she was caught fucking a taxi driver, in his taxi, in the school car park.

    If you can, teach. If you can't, don't ruin kids lives.

    Teacher requirements:

    1. Know the subject
    2. Like people
    3. Be confident
    4. Get along with the kids, but know when to be strict.

    I was going to try and become a secondary school IT teacher, however, I think i'll become a lecturer at a University one day.

    Posted 23 hours, 9 minutes after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Turnip
  35. Turnip:

    "They're usually in it purely because they didn't get to be what they wanted to be in life (e.g. science teacher failed to become a vet) and that's what ruins it."

    Either that or they didn't know what it was going to be like and don't feel they can turn back. My ex-tutor said to me that if he could make his career choice again with the experience of teaching he now has then he wouldn't be in teaching. I also heard that the average lifespan of a teaching career is 4 years.

    One thing that my Mum said to be a while back about teaching, is that she thinks some people go into it because they've been in a school environment for the whole of their life and they feel comfortable staying in a school environment.

    "It probably won't surprise you that this teacher was sacked because she was caught fucking a taxi driver, in his taxi, in the school car park."

    Actually... that did surprise me, but never mind ;).

    Bottom line is, in my humble, and currently experienced opinion, there should be a lot more emphasis on the actual skill of teaching and controlling a class than there is. It's amazing how people change depending on what teacher is in the room.

    Posted 1 day after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Robert Lofthouse
  36. Dunstan:

    Richard, I know it's easy to make facts look dramatic when they don't mean much, and it's easy to compare unlike with unlike, to be dramatic, but the facts that Letwin presents are useful highlight the fact that the Government (any government) does grossly overspend, and that they do so in areas that I'm sure most of us would disagree with. It's an eye catching set of facts, and if it gets people questioning their government's actions, then I think it's a healthy thing. I'm sure Letwin could provide more realistic comparissons and back them up with graphs and so on, but it was a short blurb in the paper intended to get people thinking. I think it did a good job.

    And while it's easy to say "What was the administrative budget before and after this 60% rise? £1 and £1.60, because of replacing those 3 broken pencil sharpeners?", we both know that it's not such tiny figures that are being discussed. It's more likely hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds, and any time a budget like that goes up by 60% I'd hope that people question where the money's going.

    And as for the taxi bill going up by 1000%, those guys use taxis more than you can possibly imagine, I remember seeing a similar bill presented on the news once and we were all open-mouthed at the amount ministers spent on them. It was an huge figure (but one which I can't recall right now.)

    Oh, here's one example from May, 2004:

    - - - - - - -
    "The Conservatives last night displayed the latest of their broadcasts. It is again based on negative campaigning, attacking Labour for wasting £20 billion of taxpayers’ money.

    "It mentioned £70,000 for cancelling a hotel trip for National Health Service executives and a £250,000 taxi bill run up by the Cabinet Office. The money, the advert said, could be used to hire 800,000 nurses, 700,000 teachers or 600,000 police."

    http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=594262004
    - - - - - - -

    I wouldn't want that bugger rising by 1000%! ;o)

    Thanks for the comment though (the longest I think I've ever had on this site), you did well to add a healthy dose of down-to-earth reality to the proceedings.

    That said, I'd still like to smack the government upside the head, those figures might not be the sort of things you'd bet your house on, but they certainly hint at the ridiculous way huge public organisations (like government) are run and spend their money. Oh, sorry, _our_ money ;o)

    Posted 1 day after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Richard, ↑ Sophie
    Inspired: ↓ Turnip, ↓ Zzen, ↓ Richard
  37. Turnip:

    Heh, if you're U18 like me, you don't have to pay tax ;) (Bar VAT *glare*).

    Posted 1 day after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Dunstan
  38. Robert Lofthouse:

    "Either that or they didn't know what it was going to be like and don't feel they can turn back. My ex-tutor said to me that if he could make his career choice again with the experience of teaching he now has then he wouldn't be in teaching. I also heard that the average lifespan of a teaching career is 4 years."

    Most teachers leave due to being offered more pay for something non-teacher related. Another reason some people do it is for experience. The only decent teachers are either those who wanted to be a teacher right from the beginning, or those people who are natural authors/public speakers/"explainers" etc.

    I don't think it'd be because they don't know what it's like, as you have to work at a college/school for a year while doing your PGCE, before you're actually allowed to be a teacher (unless you do the fasttrack). Some people just can't cut it as a teacher, because it involves sacrificing most of your spare time to do marking/worksheets/research/insets/planning/meeting planning and so on.

    I used to think most of my teachers were quite crap when I was in school, now that I look back I think they were pretty damn good. If all you see of a teacher is when they walk into a classroom and teach you, then it's hard to judge their overall performance. Some people need to work on a few areas, which is why they have a mentor and get assessed every year by their colleagues, but some people just are crap generally and should never have got into the profession.

    I've learnt a lot about teaching since I met my fiancee, seeing what she has to do every night and what she has to put up with at school. Usually only about 5% - 10% of a school truly appreciates and understands what a teacher does - the rest mess around.

    However, although this has been an interesting discussion, it's not what the original subject is about. So that's all I have to say on that :P

    and Dunstan:

    Disgraceful :P your spelling checker assumes irregular verbs are wrong e.g. irregular - learnt, regular - learned :P

    I was also wondering why you replace double/single quotes etc with the correct entities in your main post, but that feature doesn't process the comments as well :P

    back to the main subject :P

    Posted 1 day after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Turnip
  39. Turnip:

    "However, although this has been an interesting discussion, it's not what the original subject is about. So that's all I have to say on that :P"

    Turnip nods and waits for Dunstan's next post :D.

    Posted 1 day, 3 hours after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Robert Lofthouse
  40. Zzen:

    OK, I thought I'll add an idea or two as well. I do not live in UK (but in Czech Republic) - but as we've all seen, the problems are the same everywhere.

    First of all, I do understand why Turnip got suddenly so expressive. :) The numbers games are really dangerous and can be grossly misleading. And the figures like "extra size of the NHS bureaucracy [...] would pay for over 4000,000 hip replacements" really don't say anything at all. They are cheap attacks (pun intended).

    That being said, there is a sense to some of these figures:

    * First of all, as Sophie noted, making the list more specific would ruin the clarity of the comparison.

    * Second, some of these figures may help you to get a rough idea of the size of the bureaucracy. If you see that there are more bureaucrats than UK soldiers then you can ask questions like "what is more important to me - national security or inner working of the state"? Don't kid yourself however -- you DO need a certain level of bureaucracy and not all of it is bad.

    * Third, if you see a quote like "Of 88,000 newly employed in education, just 14,000 were teachers" there is a valid question: "What do we need more than more teachers? Who are these other people? Do we need them." The answer may very well be yes, we need them, no, there are enough teachers. Not many of us are experts in national education. I don't claim to know the answers. It's still valid to ask the questions though. Just to raise your awareness.

    Last, I'd like to address the very popular issue of taxi expenses. Yes -- it does hint at a waste of taxpayer money and overall personal arrogance of the minister. On the other hand, let's be fair: the minister is a busy person and I will happily pay for all his taxis with my taxpayers money IF it helps him be more productive and save thousands the amount of money because he is running his resort effectively. That would be, in my opinion, money well invested. If he is effective, then let him have his taxis, his hotels...

    So -- don't ask yourself how many hearth transplants could be paid for with his hotel expenses. Ask how he is running his resort. That, of course, is a question much harder to answer and therefore far less popular to ask.

    Posted 1 day, 3 hours after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Richard, ↑ Sophie, ↑ Dunstan
    Inspired: ↓ Richard
  41. Richard:

    Dunstan

    Wow, record breaking posts :-) Pleased to meet you.

    True, it's important and worthwhile to raise these things. Hats off to you for sticking it all on your fine blog to talk about. But if "it's a healthy thing" to "[get] people questioning their government's actions" then surely it would be _even healthier_ to do it in a more robust and meaningful way? Out of context statistics do nothing more than mislead those who fall for them, and patronise everyone else.

    I'm not trying to say that everything is fine and that we should all go back to sleep and not question the government's actions. Far from it. Nor am I saying that nobody can raise any points without giving out _all_ the graphs and stuff too. That would mean that there could be no lists of short, snappy facts, ever. Is a decent balance too much to hope for?

    This list, and many like it, fall into some pretty fundamental traps. I guess my main gripe is the comparison that uses relative rather than absolute figures. It's just plain misleading to do this, and someone as intelligent as Letwin knows this. But it's as if it's all part of the game, or something.

    I just get sick and tired of comparisons that are made to "look dramatic when they don't mean much". If Letwin - or anyone else for that matter - has something meaningful to say, then let's bloody well hear it. In short, concise nuggets for high impact if you like. Give us the lowdown. Don't give us these flawed tabloid-style points, because it just perpetuates the confusion and mistrust.

    Yeah, I know that my £1.60 and 1000% examples were OTT, but they were just meant to illustrate the point, nothing more. You're damned right that we "wouldn't want that bugger rising by 1000%" - but that's the whole point! Was it that bugger? Or a somewhat smaller bugger? And either way, as Zzen asks, what was the benefit of that journey? Some people go everywhere by bike or foot, but probably not if they're carrying a ton of confidential paperwork. And London is a big, messy place. Either way, Letwin's point is cheap and simplistic. IMHO.

    My £1.60 thing was not meant to be literal. Neither's this: imagine I start a blog tomorrow, and have one comment posted. Dunstan has 100 comments posted on his. Next week, Dunstan has 104 (he's doing consistently well), and I have 6 (I'm slowly gathering readers). Now do a Letwin, and tell me how our blogs' popularity changed since last week. I'm up by 600%, Dunstan a lowly 4%. Wow, I must be bloody great.

    Another example is the kind of thing you see all the time when talking about risk. Imagine a fatal disease that you have 1 in a million chance of contracting in your lifetime. Now imagine I told you that by doing a certain thing you increase your chances of getting that disease by 300%. That sounds pretty bad, especially if you don't know the first part about the actual risk. Picture it: the papers go mad for a bit, and everyone's told to stop doing that thing, cos it increases their chance of death by this disease by 300 bleedin' per cent. Shock horror. Headlines. But because you're increasing a very small absolute risk by a large amount, it's still only a *very very* small risk - an extra 2 out of a *million* chances of getting this disease in your lifetime. Which is absolutely bloody insignificant, on the scheme of things - makes no difference to anyone, really. Every day we do things that increase our chances of dying by many, many times more than this example, but without batting an eyelid. Have a couple of drinks and cross a busy road, and you just increased your chances of dying by shitloads. I did it just before I got back to my flat. Stop the press!

    "Those figures might not be the sort of things you'd bet your house on" - is it too much to ask to get something that we _can_ bet our houses on? This is, after all, bloody important stuff - as you say yourself. I agree with you that we need to look into all of this properly, and if the government's doing a bad job, you're right to get in there with your slapping hand at the ready. I just reckon if you want to do that, you 're better off doing it good and proper.

    And: relax :-)

    Posted 1 day, 5 hours after the fact
  42. Rob Mientjes:

    Oh bugger. The Germans are joining in too :op
    Another entry for the spam list, /me thinks.

    Richard, you made a valuable point. Percentual increasings can be meaningless, and they sometimes are.

    Posted 1 day, 20 hours after the fact
  43. Matthew Farrand:

    A lot of this discussion assumes that Oliver Letwin is stating fact. Is this so? Can he verify these figures? What are the sources? How has he chosen the time lines on which he bases his pronouncements?

    As people have already said, using stats in this way is misleading. http://www.chanticleer.com/archives/000119.html goes into this further.

    I am no lover of Tony Blair (to put it mildly) but I'm old enough to know that government abuse of statistics has been going on for a lot longer than the present government has been in office.

    Posted 1 day, 21 hours after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Richard
  44. Francis O'Brien:

    As a British civil servant, I feel Mr Letwin here is giving us a hard time really. Nice of him to use us a politcal tool though, seeing as over 100,000 of us will be losing our jobs within the next yera, me included. I've recently been told I'll be out of a job in October, as well as about 1,000 others at my place of work. Will you champion the cause of the thousands of people who will be unemployed because of this, or will you still campaign to send us all to the Job Centre, or worse, the dole queue?

    Posted 2 days, 3 hours after the fact
  45. Sian:

    Same old, same old.

    I'm not worrying about Civil Servants (yet) I'm having enough problems being employed by my local authority.

    Posted 2 days, 4 hours after the fact
  46. Miriam:

    Governments are as boring as these couples:

    http://noctos.blogspot.com/2004/08/bored-couples-versus-boring-profiles.html

    Posted 2 days, 8 hours after the fact
  47. Andrew:

    God i hate this country.

    Posted 2 days, 12 hours after the fact
  48. Simon:

    I think we should do exactly what the USA do and that is have a maximum of 2 terms in office and then elect a new leader for the party for the next election. That way we don't get the arrogance of a leader (Thatcher, Blair - no difference really) becoming complacent.

    I still can't get my head around a Labour government going to war on search a false remit. I bet if Argentina invaded the Falklands today that Blair would certainly not have gone to war over it.

    Posted 2 days, 15 hours after the fact
  49. Richard:

    I thought the original post topic was pretty interesting... now we're into "God I hate this country" mode, and other subjects entirely.

    (Observant, eh?)

    Posted 3 days, 16 hours after the fact
  50. Richard J:

    You should be a tad wary of politicians complaining about the number of bureaucrats. The term "bureaucrat" is nicely vague enough that people will struggle to criticise your complaint. But it is also too vague to be of any use in determining the substance of the complaint.

    PS. Is there any way that your spellcheck could accommodate British English? At present it is suggesting that I should spell "criticise" with a "z". It can be a wee bit annoying for software to suggest you can't spell when, actually, you can.

    Posted 5 days, 3 hours after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Richard
  51. Richard:

    I agree - this is another nail in the coffin of this useful list of 'facts'. Not only are the descriptions of the stats dodgy, but some of the things the stats are _about_ are vague.

    Of course, lots of different people do this stuff... Letwin isn't alone by a long chalk. These gripes could be aimed at just about every flavour of politician at some time or another, and at lobby groups in particular. They're all competing with each other for our attention, and trying to get us to go for their brands: be they Tory, Labour, Coca Cola, Nike, Greenpeace or Friends of The Earth. And more often than not, rational thinking and 'the truth' come second.

    If you find this kind of stuff interesting, you should check out http://www.spiked-online.com - tons of reading material. A definite pinch of salt at the ready on a few areas, but as a source of things to have arguments with your friends about, it's hard to beat. I should start a blog, cos I'd love to know what the rest of you lot think of it all. (Although I guess it's not _quite_ as simple as that...)

    And spelling thing, yes: it's a brilliant idea, but any UK English spell checker that offers

    "color, co lour, co-lour, col our, col-our, Colo, cooler, coolie, collar, cool, Cloe, Cole, cloy, clue, Collie, Collier, clout, collie, collier, colors, COL, Clo, Col, col, Cooley, Clair, Colly, coaler, lour"

    for "colour" is havin' a bit of a larf :-)

    Posted 5 days, 4 hours after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Dunstan, ↑ Zzen, ↑ Matthew Farrand, ↑ Richard J
  52. Leith:

    I normally hate the Tories but to be honest i'm getting quite concerned at the bloat were starting to see in the various branches of the civil service - if they were a private company they would have gone broke years ago. One good thing to come out of is that it has significantly lowered the unemployment rate and hence the economy feels nice and healthy (although feeling healthy and being healthy are two different things)

    Posted 6 days, 2 hours after the fact
    Inspired: ↓ Richard
  53. Richard:

    If 'they' were a private company we'd be a lot worse off. Private companies exist to make a profit, and they therefore won't _do_ unprofitable things. Looking after the running of a country, which involves taking care of all kinds of tasks, for all types of people, is not one of those profitable things. It might even mean making a financial loss, but instead making people's lives better where they are otherwise unable to make their way.

    "if they were a private company they would have gone broke years ago"

    They aren't, and that's the whole point. We should be pretty glad about that.

    Bloat, as you say, is another issue. But how can we judge what's needed and what's real when all we get from the official opposition (and most of the rest) is the kind of shit that Letwin et al. pump out?

    Eh?

    Posted 6 days, 3 hours after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Leith
    Inspired: ↓ Alex
  54. Alex:

    Richard, that's just a common misconception, you see there's alot of country in this world that manage to run a budget profit and provide service to their population, for example Australia, Canada ( the only member of the G8 that manage a profit ), Sweden, Finland, Denmark, New Zealand, Singapore, Norway. Those aren't crappy country, those are country at the top of all UN listing for quality of life. How they manage it? Good governement, has simple has that. Most of these country has the highest rates of taxes in the world, because their population understand that you have to pay your fair share for services, and they understand how dangerous a bad governement can be ( see my rule of democratia comment earlier ).

    All company do alot of unprofitable thing, all services ( customer service, warranty etc. ) are all unprofitable. They do it to make customer buy their product. The UK has become the walmart of governement, people want all their service has cheaply has possible, of course with that mentality your going to run a budget deficit, which you'll have to repay ( or your children ).

    Of course it's harder to live without a credit card, it take sacrifice and patience to buy stuff without the need to borrow, but don't say it's impossible and will make your life worse off, because it's not true, ask australians, canadians, norwegians...

    Posted 6 days, 16 hours after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Richard
    Inspired: ↓ Richard
  55. Richard:

    OK, fair enough. Thanks for telling me about these things - I obviously need to look into it all a bit more. I'm not sure the UK people "want all their service as cheaply as possible" - we are generally very protective of the National Health Service, for example, and most people are more than prepared to pay for it. Whether that's a good or bad thing, I'm prepared to be convinced on, though my instincts are for a state run system for these crucial things. There's a big ideological debate there.

    I suppose my main point was about the way all of these things are argued about: if there's a really cast-iron case for spending money in a certain way, then politicians should make that case properly. Instead, we mostly get attention-grabbing statements designed to appeal to our emotions more than our intelligence. Which is a bad thing, plain and simple.

    Posted 6 days, 20 hours after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Alex
    Inspired: ↓ Alex
  56. Alex:

    Well I am french-canadian, so I won't debate the fact that health care should be a public service and available to anyone. The only people who would argue are citizen of the United States, and their argument are : "I won't pay for other peoples health problems" ( they tend to ignore the fact that pretty much all States run a free clinic, they just don't want to write it into a law ).

    Well the problem with your main point is that, you will be old before budget problem become a real problem. It's pretty much the same problem with pollution, of course everyone know we are polluting our earth, but since we aren't feeling the consequence, nobody care. That's why Oliver Letwin ( or any politician ) shouldn't attempt to educate the public, it never work, how many decade have we be talking about global warming?

    What people want to hear is something that affect them right now. That's why Oliver Letwin try to become a popstar, with sensational quote. Like I said earlier, he should work on his charisma, Tony Blair was elected solely based on his charisma, that's what people want. Gordon Brown know this, that's why he gave all those public servant jobs, hence the unemployment is lower, people happier, the price is a budget deficit which doesn't affect you directly, only your children in a few years when the bill come around.

    Don't tell me you believe intelligence have more power then emotion? Come on, hot night full of sex or a hot session of challenging chess playing? Yeah thought so... Intelligence is a by-product of our emotions, that's why we can't control them. Emotion make us human, not intelligence.

    Posted 6 days, 23 hours after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Richard
  57. Richard:

    Emotion makes us human, sex is more fun than chess: yes, I couldn't agree more :-)

    Intelligence also makes us human. Intelligence is not a by-product of our emotions, it's something separate, that we can use as well (it's pretty bloody handy.) Intelligence can try, but it can't tell you what to feel, because it doesn't quite work like that. Emotion can't do the things intelligence and rationality can, because emotions can change irrationally, and make us to the wrong things very easily. "We can't control them," as you point out. If you wanted me to work out how to do something difficult that would save your life, you would want me to use my intelligence, not my emotions.

    The way we feel is very easily manipulated. I could probably make you angry if I wanted to, but I won't - all I'd have to do is write something sufficiently offensive into this box. If you then did things based on that anger, then I'd have directly controlled your actions. And I'm hundreds of miles away from you.

    It's not a question of which has more power. Emotions are *very* powerful, and they do lots of huge things. Emotions are personal, and the things that make life worth living. Intelligence is *also* very powerful.

    But you're mixing things around here. Intelligence is what should be used to run the country, not emotions. Intelligence is what should be used to make decisions about the way the world works, disease, pollution, global warming... whatever, NOT emotion.

    Emotion is used too much at the moment to make arguments about things like environmental problems. That's why there is so much confusion and disagreement. The best available information is what is needed, NOT potentially misinformed emotion. If you think the world needs to be run entirely on emotion, then I think you need to see a doctor. Interpersonal relationships, yes. Difficult problems facing the world, no.

    Your idea that politicians "shouldn't attempt to educate the public, it never works" is really terrifying. I don't want to be educated by Letwin, I just want him to say things that make sense, so that I can work out what he means. The same goes for everyone else. The alternative is that everything we do is based on how we (or others) feel, and that is too easily swayed by misinformation. If you think that's bad or wrong, simply because it's more difficult to communicate rational arguments than throw around emotive statements, or because you think that most people are selfish and stupid, then feel free to keep on thinking that. But I disagree about as strongly as you can imagine.

    Posted 1 week after the fact
  58. Small Paul:

    "A criminal’s arrest takes, on average, three and a half hours to process."

    Someone's a criminal once they've been convicted of a crime. This is unlikely to happen before they're arrested. So perhaps you/Oliver Letwin mean "A suspect's arrest".

    I don't think any change in government is likely to lead to greater civil service efficiency. I think more efficient civil servants will lead to that. So people wanting to improve efficiency in the civil service should join it, and make it better.

    Posted 1 week after the fact
  59. Oz:

    Yeah yeah yeah, all this stuff is true. Labour are no better than the Tories in many ways.

    With this in mind, in the upcoming elections surely it is wiser to elect Labour for a further term since economic and social policy can take a long time to implement and even longer before we see results. I'm pretty sure that in the long run both parties would direct the country in the same direction, but electing a Conservative government would slow down the progress so much due to infighting, scrapping of old plans, deciding on and implementing new policies.

    Furthermore, everyone seems to want something for nothing! People complain and complain and complain about the NHS and other public services, but if someone even dares to think about raising tax rates to pay for the improvements people suddenly want nothing to do with it. At the, somewhat, tender age of 17 perhaps I don't fully appreciate the burden of tax since I only pay VAT (yay!), but still can the British public not see the link between money in and service out?

    Besides, does no-one else want to throttle Oliver Letwin when he's on TV? He's so damn... twattish.

    Posted 1 week, 1 day after the fact
  60. Spike:

    It really isn't worth it to be a teacher nowadays. The hours you put in - unpaid - out of 'office hours' go unrewarded by either pay or praise, so there's no real point to it unless you have an overwhelming desire to be a teacher - and with bickering, rude, pretentious kids in your class, who does?

    Posted 2 weeks after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Turnip
    Inspired: ↓ Ross Parker
  61. Ross Parker:

    'Office hours' being 9am to 3.30pm in any month but the three or four a year when there is no school?

    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days after the fact
    Inspired by: ↑ Spike
  62. Robert Lofthouse:

    "The hours you put in - unpaid - out of 'office hours' go unrewarded by either pay or praise"

    Depends on what you see as a "reward". Fair enough, I expect teachers to get a little more than they earn now. My fiancee earns £33,000 per annum and that gets increased next year, so she/we're not complaining :P She's only been teaching for about 3/4 years.

    "so there's no real point to it unless you have an overwhelming desire to be a teacher"

    That's the point of most jobs, you do it because you have an overwhelming desire to do it. I would expect that from anyone wanting to be a teacher.

    "and with bickering, rude, pretentious kids in your class"

    It's no different to dealing with bickering, rude, pretentious colleagues :P

    "who does?"

    Quite a few people, other than the constant whiners who go on tv and pretend that they represent everyone's opinion.

    Posted 2 weeks, 2 days after the fact
  63. Spike:

    "'Office hours' being 9am to 3.30pm in any month but the three or four a year when there is no school?"

    What we're referring to there is the hours each day the kids are being taught. More and more (and even more) planning and preparation is coming in as a prerequisite to every single lesson taught. Structure and form must be written down and heeded, observations made, reports filed, courses taken, schools inspected and so much more.

    My parents and three friends are teachers. My parents are both at the top of their pay scale, with a handful of extra responsibilities and they're in at 7:30-8:00am and out by 7:00-8:00pm if they're lucky. The same hours are being put in by my three friends (all just out of uni). This is not untypical.

    To say that kids are like colleagues is sheer madness. Teachers have no power over children unless they're very, very good at their job. And when that happens you deal with all the other teachers' problems all over the school.

    July and August may make this all worthwhile for some people, but increasingly the workload is far too high for the reward.

    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days after the fact
  64. Robert Lofthouse:

    Spike:

    May I inquire as to which area your friends and parents are teaching in? My fiancee teaches in Hackney, which is the most dangerous place in the UK and as i've mentioned, she and I have no problems.

    She's an English teacher, Head of Media Studies and Literacy Coordinator, so she has quite a lot of work to do. She always gets home around 5pm, works for a few hours and then relaxes, she's the hardest working teacher in the school, hence why she gets promoted so fast.

    The kids adore my fiancee and respect her a lot. Of course she gets unruly kids, but they're kids, so what? It's even worse when you have immature colleagues who should know better. If you don't have the desire to teach, then don't do it, it's a simple as that.

    I hate people getting into teaching when they have no desire to do it, they don't like kids much and they're not good with people. Those are usually the teachers that continually whine and damage the children's education.

    I'm always around teachers and I always have been. The only moans I hear from them (except the odd few) are the typical moans people make about any job.

    Not saying that it's the same for all teachers, but considering most of the teachers I know teach in the worst areas of the UK, it can't be much worse for those that don't.

    Posted 2 weeks, 3 days after the fact

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